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	<title>Comments on: What Exploitation?</title>
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	<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/</link>
	<description>WRITING THE LONGEST REVOLUTION</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mary Sunshine</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17814</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Sunshine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17814</guid>
		<description>No need to get sucked in by male voices.

The first law of Female Survival:          Don't get sucked in.

The second law of Female Survival:     Chow down.

:-D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No need to get sucked in by male voices.</p>
<p>The first law of Female Survival:          Don&#8217;t get sucked in.</p>
<p>The second law of Female Survival:     Chow down.</p>
<p> <img src='http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Nine Deuce</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17813</link>
		<dc:creator>Nine Deuce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17813</guid>
		<description>I took this comic down to keep my thread on track (or to try to -- it's now become the place du jour do discuss the philosophy of science), but it really irritated me. It wasn't essential to my argument, but it was a perfect distillation of what I wanted to communicate, and it did so in a much clearer, harder-hitting way than my admittedly verbose prose can do. It's one of those things that just drives the point home in its simplicity. As Friction pointed out, the woman who is being prostituted can call herself a feminist, claim she's reclaiming her sexuality, whatever, but when the customer still sees her as a subhuman commodity, where's the feminism and the salvation of women's sexuality from male exploitation? Who holds the cultural and financial power to decide whether what she's doing is empowering?

It makes me absolutely exasperated to hear people argue that I put it up because I'm a racist (or, as some have claimed, a sexist, because the comic makes the stripper look stupid). I know that we are all trying to figure out ways to have the voices of different oppressed groups heard, and I certainly do my best to check my own privileges and try to understand the viewpoints of other women, but I don't see this one. And it isn't because I'm "blinded" by white privilege. One has to be unwilling to acknolwedge their own privilege to be unable to see through it, and that is just not the case. 

The men on my page keep bringing up Occam's Razor to bolster their ludicrous EB/EP arguments (which have been destroyed by other commenters), saying that biology is the simplest explanation for male behavior. I think I'd like to ask them to apply Occam's Razor to the cartoon. Is it, as they claim, a covert attempt to communicate some nebulous and unidentified set of racist and sexist notions, or does it mean what it means when taken at face value, that women who think they're empowered by stripping are kidding themselves because the men still take a piggish attitude towards them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I took this comic down to keep my thread on track (or to try to &#8212; it&#8217;s now become the place du jour do discuss the philosophy of science), but it really irritated me. It wasn&#8217;t essential to my argument, but it was a perfect distillation of what I wanted to communicate, and it did so in a much clearer, harder-hitting way than my admittedly verbose prose can do. It&#8217;s one of those things that just drives the point home in its simplicity. As Friction pointed out, the woman who is being prostituted can call herself a feminist, claim she&#8217;s reclaiming her sexuality, whatever, but when the customer still sees her as a subhuman commodity, where&#8217;s the feminism and the salvation of women&#8217;s sexuality from male exploitation? Who holds the cultural and financial power to decide whether what she&#8217;s doing is empowering?</p>
<p>It makes me absolutely exasperated to hear people argue that I put it up because I&#8217;m a racist (or, as some have claimed, a sexist, because the comic makes the stripper look stupid). I know that we are all trying to figure out ways to have the voices of different oppressed groups heard, and I certainly do my best to check my own privileges and try to understand the viewpoints of other women, but I don&#8217;t see this one. And it isn&#8217;t because I&#8217;m &#8220;blinded&#8221; by white privilege. One has to be unwilling to acknolwedge their own privilege to be unable to see through it, and that is just not the case. </p>
<p>The men on my page keep bringing up Occam&#8217;s Razor to bolster their ludicrous EB/EP arguments (which have been destroyed by other commenters), saying that biology is the simplest explanation for male behavior. I think I&#8217;d like to ask them to apply Occam&#8217;s Razor to the cartoon. Is it, as they claim, a covert attempt to communicate some nebulous and unidentified set of racist and sexist notions, or does it mean what it means when taken at face value, that women who think they&#8217;re empowered by stripping are kidding themselves because the men still take a piggish attitude towards them?</p>
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		<title>By: Sis</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17808</link>
		<dc:creator>Sis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17808</guid>
		<description>I split his lip (and cracked the hand knuckle of my longest finger) when he pinched my bum as I bent down to pick up the ball in recess softball in Grade 3. We all wore little dresses with bows at the back. Mine were usually accessorised with scraped knees accented in dried blood. Anyway, it was I who had to go to the principal's office, I who got the strap, and I who had to take a note home. The first of many. There was the teenage gym teacher who used to finger me as he helped me over the horse. I dropped gymnastics. The field race teacher who told me soon I couldn't run anymore because that would ruin my breasts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I split his lip (and cracked the hand knuckle of my longest finger) when he pinched my bum as I bent down to pick up the ball in recess softball in Grade 3. We all wore little dresses with bows at the back. Mine were usually accessorised with scraped knees accented in dried blood. Anyway, it was I who had to go to the principal&#8217;s office, I who got the strap, and I who had to take a note home. The first of many. There was the teenage gym teacher who used to finger me as he helped me over the horse. I dropped gymnastics. The field race teacher who told me soon I couldn&#8217;t run anymore because that would ruin my breasts.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17803</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 19:19:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17803</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Men paying for women to be sex objects so they can get their rocks off don’t give a shit if you’re “sex positive” or not.

&lt;/strong&gt;Truer words were never spoken.   Such is the problem with the postmodern hell so many of the sex positive crowd choose to inhabit, where down is up and up is down and it's all about what's going on in my own head, as though everything we do doesn't take place in a certain context and have ramifications for everybody else in the world.  It is like the outer limits of disconnection. 

I keep wondering what the world would be like if instead of sexist, misogynist cartoons being ubiquitous and inescapable, cartoons like this one were equally ubiquitous.  Maybe girls and women would think, "Wow, everybody else feels like I do about the way men and boys do this horrible thing."  Maybe boys and men would think, "UGH.  Do not want." &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The first time I recall recognizing what this cartoon depicts is when I was a really little girl, probably 7 or 8 in elementary school.  During recess we girls would  jump rope, a girl on each end of the rope.  One recess we were jumping roping to a certain rhyme, part of which went like this (I can't remember the first part):&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;em&gt;She can do the rhumba&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;em&gt;She can do the twist&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;em&gt;She can throw her dress up &lt;/em&gt;
&lt;em&gt;Higher than her hips.&lt;/em&gt;

And of course in those days we all wore dresses.  When you jump rope, you act out what you are saying, so you make a rhumba move and then a twist move, and then you throw your dress up, then it's the next girl's turn.  A huge line of boys assembled to watch us, all possessed of the very sort of vacant, mocking, contemptuous, vaguely violent leers the cartoon depicts so well, though in boy form.  Sadly for me, a mean teacher, Mrs. Warburton, saw what was happening when *I* was jumping rope and I got hauled to the principal's office for the first and only time of my life.  The boys didn't pay, the girls did.  I did.  Anyway, we've all, as women, seen this stuff.  We recognize it.  I think it's good for men and boys to see the world from girls' and women's perspectives.  They rarely do or have to.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Men paying for women to be sex objects so they can get their rocks off don’t give a shit if you’re “sex positive” or not.</p>
<p></strong>Truer words were never spoken.   Such is the problem with the postmodern hell so many of the sex positive crowd choose to inhabit, where down is up and up is down and it&#8217;s all about what&#8217;s going on in my own head, as though everything we do doesn&#8217;t take place in a certain context and have ramifications for everybody else in the world.  It is like the outer limits of disconnection. </p>
<p>I keep wondering what the world would be like if instead of sexist, misogynist cartoons being ubiquitous and inescapable, cartoons like this one were equally ubiquitous.  Maybe girls and women would think, &#8220;Wow, everybody else feels like I do about the way men and boys do this horrible thing.&#8221;  Maybe boys and men would think, &#8220;UGH.  Do not want.&#8221; </p>
<p>The first time I recall recognizing what this cartoon depicts is when I was a really little girl, probably 7 or 8 in elementary school.  During recess we girls would  jump rope, a girl on each end of the rope.  One recess we were jumping roping to a certain rhyme, part of which went like this (I can&#8217;t remember the first part):</p>
<p><em>She can do the rhumba</em><br />
<em>She can do the twist</em><br />
<em>She can throw her dress up </em><br />
<em>Higher than her hips.</em></p>
<p>And of course in those days we all wore dresses.  When you jump rope, you act out what you are saying, so you make a rhumba move and then a twist move, and then you throw your dress up, then it&#8217;s the next girl&#8217;s turn.  A huge line of boys assembled to watch us, all possessed of the very sort of vacant, mocking, contemptuous, vaguely violent leers the cartoon depicts so well, though in boy form.  Sadly for me, a mean teacher, Mrs. Warburton, saw what was happening when *I* was jumping rope and I got hauled to the principal&#8217;s office for the first and only time of my life.  The boys didn&#8217;t pay, the girls did.  I did.  Anyway, we&#8217;ve all, as women, seen this stuff.  We recognize it.  I think it&#8217;s good for men and boys to see the world from girls&#8217; and women&#8217;s perspectives.  They rarely do or have to.</p>
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		<title>By: Friction</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17799</link>
		<dc:creator>Friction</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17799</guid>
		<description>I'm a sex worker (formerly an escort and now a pro domme) but I've never stripped so I can't tell you what it feels like to work in a club. Still, I think this cartoon takes a good stab at what goes on in men's minds when they're seeking out porn and prostitutes. It's a CARTOON people. Cartoons exaggerate to make some point. I've taken the point. And this nonsense about it being racist seems to be coming from people who want to distract us from the point: Men paying for women to be sex objects so they can get their rocks off don't give a shit if you're "sex positive" or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a sex worker (formerly an escort and now a pro domme) but I&#8217;ve never stripped so I can&#8217;t tell you what it feels like to work in a club. Still, I think this cartoon takes a good stab at what goes on in men&#8217;s minds when they&#8217;re seeking out porn and prostitutes. It&#8217;s a CARTOON people. Cartoons exaggerate to make some point. I&#8217;ve taken the point. And this nonsense about it being racist seems to be coming from people who want to distract us from the point: Men paying for women to be sex objects so they can get their rocks off don&#8217;t give a shit if you&#8217;re &#8220;sex positive&#8221; or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Tracy9</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17798</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Tracy9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17798</guid>
		<description>As a (sorta) cartoonist wannabe, I'd like to say that I found the cartoon EXCELLENT. It makes its point very clear and in your face. Particularly when you read the words from the woman: "I'm exploiting myself". That for me is what's most telling. When you  see the men around (after reading her words) you realize how the "exploiting myself" idea falls to pieces. 

I've never seen this cartoon before, so thanks to Heart and Nine Deuce for posting it ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a (sorta) cartoonist wannabe, I&#8217;d like to say that I found the cartoon EXCELLENT. It makes its point very clear and in your face. Particularly when you read the words from the woman: &#8220;I&#8217;m exploiting myself&#8221;. That for me is what&#8217;s most telling. When you  see the men around (after reading her words) you realize how the &#8220;exploiting myself&#8221; idea falls to pieces. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never seen this cartoon before, so thanks to Heart and Nine Deuce for posting it <img src='http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Satsuma</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17796</link>
		<dc:creator>Satsuma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17796</guid>
		<description>I know I shouldn't put a silly here, but the breadcrumb thing reminded me of the bedtime story I tell my little puppy each night to help him go into his crate.  He flogs down outside the crate, and I put little "dog treat" crumbs in a path to the crate and a few inside it.  Then I tell the story about a puppy who goes to a magic forest to find a delicious gingerbread house.

At first, it became kind of a Hanel and Gretle type story, but when I had the witch flying through the air he just got hyper.  Telling a peaceful story got him to go right in the crate!  Even dogs respond well to fairy tales that don't involve evil or witches or scary!

Mary Sunshine's comments about breadcrumbs inspired me :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I shouldn&#8217;t put a silly here, but the breadcrumb thing reminded me of the bedtime story I tell my little puppy each night to help him go into his crate.  He flogs down outside the crate, and I put little &#8220;dog treat&#8221; crumbs in a path to the crate and a few inside it.  Then I tell the story about a puppy who goes to a magic forest to find a delicious gingerbread house.</p>
<p>At first, it became kind of a Hanel and Gretle type story, but when I had the witch flying through the air he just got hyper.  Telling a peaceful story got him to go right in the crate!  Even dogs respond well to fairy tales that don&#8217;t involve evil or witches or scary!</p>
<p>Mary Sunshine&#8217;s comments about breadcrumbs inspired me <img src='http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Mary Sunshine</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17783</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Sunshine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 09:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17783</guid>
		<description>Hey, (( Pisaquari !! ))

And, you've been busy baking up a storm over there on your blog. I regularly stop in for a nice fresh buttered slice.

:-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, (( Pisaquari !! ))</p>
<p>And, you&#8217;ve been busy baking up a storm over there on your blog. I regularly stop in for a nice fresh buttered slice.</p>
<p> <img src='http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':-P' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: pisaquari</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17770</link>
		<dc:creator>pisaquari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17770</guid>
		<description>Hey Mary--
I've been eating the bread crumbs for about four years now.
They are delicious. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Mary&#8211;<br />
I&#8217;ve been eating the bread crumbs for about four years now.<br />
They are delicious. <img src='http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Mary Sunshine</title>
		<link>http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2008/07/28/what-exploitation/#comment-17745</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Sunshine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 18:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/?p=1907#comment-17745</guid>
		<description>Sis,
 
I agree. 

The most valuable thing we can do, I think, is to leave a trail of breadcrumbs for the actual potential feminists to follow.

A few links, or something.

Then bug out for the sake of our own time &#38; energy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sis,</p>
<p>I agree. </p>
<p>The most valuable thing we can do, I think, is to leave a trail of breadcrumbs for the actual potential feminists to follow.</p>
<p>A few links, or something.</p>
<p>Then bug out for the sake of our own time &amp; energy.</p>
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